Unlimited Free Space: Comprehensive Waterfront Plan
Tennessee is USI's third host - providing the team, along with Jean-Christian - beds in the wee morning hours of Sunday, 6 July. After daylight, Bernd had to deal with an architectural dilemma in Graz via telephone. Jean-Christian later took his leave. Finally, Vibeke and Norman woke up while Bernd went in search of a new Polaroid. Realizing that Tennessee was willing to grant an interview - though facing other productivity deadlines - Norman and Vibeke began the interview.
| ND |
Do you have any practical or theoretical knowledge of unlimited free space? |
|
TRD |
Of unlimited free space... As in having unlimited free space? Theoretical knowledge about it. No. Because I haven't thought about unlimited free space until you guys brought it up. I don't know if it's - unlimited free space. That's a big concept. I would have to really think about that one for a while. You wanna go on to the next question? |
| VJ |
Do you have any experience with drifting or wandering? |
|
TRD |
On a pretty regular basis, I go with a friend - or myself - and go to different neighborhoods and wander - and wander around - in that there's no particular aim. It's more an appreciation and enjoyment of a place. And it is great not to have a whole deadline that I have to think about - and go ahead and just drift. It's pretty easy to drift around in this city because there's so much food and water available. You can stop anywhere and get refreshed. I like to go just out on a subway and just get off at an unknown place and explore it. Or, take a bicycle. |
| VJ |
Do you talk to people, like strangers? |
| TRD |
If I'm alone. I - well - it depends on what kind of mood I'm in. And if I'm alone, talking with people comes a lot easier. And - I think - at nighttime - talking to people - if I'm traveling, I'm not in my own city, I tend to do that more - and drift and talk to the people. Sometimes the neighborhoods I go into, I don't feel - I'm such a minority that I worry about being noticed. So, I don't want talk with people. Sometimes I like not talking at all and talking to someone seems absolutely hard and difficult to fathom and it almost breaks the experience I'm having - or maybe it's the fantasy I'm having about the place. So, yes and no. |
| VJ |
Do you think about why you go? |
| TRD |
Why? I always did. When I was little, I liked to drift around and look at places, places that weren't traveled very much. There's adventure and discovery of things, little things. Little details that I maybe would've never seen before. And, going around the urban areas I like because I could see how people take care of their house or their living place. The details about that, the garbage particularly, the stairs. How people keep something up or let it deteriorate. And I tend to like, be very interested in more deteriorating kind of spaces. But, now, that's changing. That seems to be changing. But, in places that aren't as well traveled, things aren't quite as tidy and there's more to discover. When things are quite tidy, I think "Well, someone has just been here and this has already been thought over recently." So, I go off for some place that's perhaps more dilapidated. |
| VJ |
What is the precise nature of your knowledge of the waterfront? |
| TRD |
I've heard that this guy at the marina is a pretty interesting guy. I've never met him. I go down - there's a fairly new dock and - I know that there used to be a ferry from here over to New Jersey and that doesn't exist anymore. And now, it's been recently fixed up. In fact, I spoke with someone last night who had come here for the opening of this dock or, a party at this dock and she wanted to come meet the guy who owned the marina because she heard it was an interesting - she wanted to know about this marina that was being built here. And she had a really good experience with him - and that got me more interested in it. |
| VJ |
What was her experience? |
| TRD |
That he was really a humble guy just wanting to have a marina here. And it was more this joy of meeting this down to earth guy that wasn't trying this big promotion - trying to get a big commercial thing here. Just doing this thing. And it's a fairly modest place for boats to be. And there's a place to get hot dogs and fried chicken and shrimp. And I sometimes go there and get hot dogs. And the neighborhood Latino people - couples and especially men - they drive up to this Dyckman Pier and play their music really really loud. And it's hard to enjoy, it's so loud. |
| ND |
So you feel it's limiting your free space? |
|
TRD |
It limits my free space and I feel like there's nothing I can do
about it - except I think it would take a community - you know - because
they're here and I'm there and, at least, could they be a little less
noisy. But, it's so loud and they limit my free space. And I feel like I'm
gonna limit their free space if I say something. So, someone's gonna lose
out on free space. Or, if there's some way to make it a compromise there.
I more resent it when I go there after eight. Then they start coming and I start to resent it. And it upsets me and I get really irritated and leave. But if I walk up to this Innwood Park - it's very quiet and the cars don't go - and then I get my quiet. What else about this waterfront? I walked up this waterfront years ago when I used to live on 158th street. Then - I was telling you last night about the tip where Manhattan still continues on the other side. And I know that over on this side - on that waterfront next to the 207th bridge - there used to be a big public swimming pool. Now it's a Pathmark. And that's too bad, this place could really use a big public pool. So, it's a kind of a funny area back there. If you go under the bridge over by the trains. Oh no - you didn't go by there did you? It's kind of a no man's land... It's a funny spot. Lotta garbage. Lotta glass and garbage down here at the beach. There's some sand. Someone imported sand here to make a beach. But it's all glass. It's so full of glass, it would be impossible... |
| VJ |
Do you accept the existence of unlimited free space? |
| TRD |
I think it's impossible. Unlimited free space is an impossible thing in an urban setting. Because I think of free space as being open. And there's no boundaries. And living with people, there's just boundaries. Though, there's free space but - it's defined free space. |
| VJ |
How is it defined? |
| TRD |
Well, you have to say this is my free space. In a way that it
doesn't become free space anymore. Let me think about that. Because I think of - there's plenty of places that anyone can go - and then there's that free space in between peoples' houses or their property. But there's so many orders and legal regulations and things. There's rules to follow and if you don't follow them, your activity gets stopped. You've crossed the line where you've made someone upset. Free space is more a willing acceptance of those boundaries - and then it's free because you accept it. |
| ND |
So, you think free space is to accept boundaries... |
| TRD |
Accept them when necessary and if they need to be changed, be able to note how to change them and when to take the proper action. So, I think it's accepting what is important to accept and necessary. |
|
VJ |
Do you think you've changed any boundaries? |
| TRD |
Yeah, in a little way. I own this apartment - for instance - and, I went to the first board meeting and the board president was speaking for the whole building - saying how she didn't want this street vendor out front. And I said - I want that street vendor out front - and she could no longer say the whole building wanted that. And so, in some ways it changed that boundary. |
| VJ |
What directions do you feel yourself carried in? |
| TRD |
If I'm alone, it's a whole different thing than when I'm with somebody. But let's say when I'm alone - it's energy level. Total curiosity and the time of day. How hungry I am. I tend to really desire quiet places. So if it's quiet - and there's a lotta congestion - I tend to gravitate towards that. What else? Mood, instinct. The energy level. How energized I am at that moment... |
| VJ |
Can you tell us about any encounters with people drifting? |
| TRD |
I've done a lot of drifting in non-urban areas. Once, I was in Boston and I was walking around and met this guy - he lived on the Commons - and he was a drunk and lived on the street. And I was drinking with him. He was drinking something. And I don't know if I would do this now but I was very free at that point to just drink from his bottle. And we talked a little bit about his family and about how he got - not how he got homeless - but it just came out - about his kids and his sister and - he just ended up there and he didn't really keep contact with his family or his kids and they didn't keep in contact with him and he seemed rather sad - yet, fairly accepting of his situation - and there wasn't any fear. We just talked. |
| ND |
You never saw him again? |
| TRD |
No. |
| ND |
Do you think that you could locate the center for your perception of unlimited free space? |
|
TRD |
I think yes and no - but the center would be everywhere because there's no limit. It would be all orientation. I'm having a hard time grasping unlimited free space. There's no such thing to begin with - so, it's very - I'd have to really think about that. But, there wouldn't be a center - any one center. Kind of where you would be would the center. Where you would be at that moment would be the center in a sense - because it's where you are. Since it's unlimited, you're just always - everyone would be at the center of perspective. |
| ND |
It would be like the self would be the center. |
| TRD |
Yeah, perspective. A place could be at the center, too. Where you are would be at the center. But, when I think of unlimited free space, really boundaries in space and time become so non-distinct. I think, well, I'm thinking of somewhere in the western part of this country - and it would be happening simultaneously - so, there would be two centers - there'd be many multiple centers happening. |
| ND |
Could there be any architectural changes made to the waterfront? Either through creation or destruction? |
| TRD |
It's funny. I've been thinking of unlimited free space in more of an image than conceptual. But then - when you think of architecture you think, "Oh, this is more of a concrete idea of space." I'm all for having more quiet in this city and whatever can promote that. And I think that it's so sad that this river is so polluted that you can't go out and swim. I think that cleaning up the environment along with - that gets away from architecture... |
| ND |
It doesn't get away from architecture because of the idea that agriculture is architecture. Agriculture is a form of architecture - in the sense that people transform the landscape and the environment through their architecture. |
| TRD |
What I would really like is that people stop planting their ornamental plants and plant food-giving plants instead. That there would be a real big use of solar and wind power in peoples' living spaces. I think that what could be here could be so much more efficient. It's very hard for me to see people with their windows open in the winter and heat just pouring out - and they're so hot, they're miserably hot. And that we just let this go on year after year - where do you change it? It's hard to take control of that - it's such a big problem. Energy use. So, I think energy use is more important to me than the actual way the building would look like or structure. And a much more efficient use of water... |
| VJ |
About cleaning up. You said if things were too tidy, you didn't like it so much... |
| TRD |
There's a big difference between - in France where they have street sweepers that have brooms as opposed to our street sweepers which are huge machines that roll across the roads. Clean - meaning non-poisonous. Not necessarily tidy. And that you can't swim in the river is beyond me - that - it's not beyond me. I see that it exists and it's so sad that that's the case. That is so different than cleaning up rubble and tidying up asphalt on an untidy road. Limit the cars coming into Manhattan and that would make so many people angry. How do you regulate? See? I get confused because I'm putting limits on free space - because I don't want cars here and I want people to want that too. So, it's more about the toxic level than about the rubble or untidiness. |
| VJ |
If the economic activity of Manhattan were moved somewhere else, what do you think the use for Manhattan would be? |
|
TRD |
I think it would be a theme park. |
| ND |
But, that would be economic activity, too. |
| TRD |
If anything like that moved? Well, if all that moved, we wouldn't be able to keep up the infrastructure here. Things would have to get torn down or they would be dangerous. People would move out. They'd move to other cities. It would become a very different thing. It's hard to imagine. I think it would have to be destroyed before that would happen. Like, a big chaotic event. To have this many buildings happening and this many people here, you'd have to have economic activity. [doorbell] I better get that... [returning from the door with Bernd] What is it that you imagine? |
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Modified May 23, 1997