Unlimited Free Space: Comprehensive Waterfront Plan
BK gives the word to begin the interview.
| BK |
So, let's start. |
|
ND |
Why do mice have such small balls? |
| ROLAND |
I don't know. |
| ND |
Because very few mice know how to dance. |
| ROLAND |
HA! HA! HA! I like it. |
| VJ |
The dancer. |
| ROLAND |
Very nice. Very nice. |
| VJ |
I think we should sit. |
| ROLAND |
A guy had a fascination for tractors - Jokes don't translate. Right? |
| ND |
Not always. No. |
| ROLAND |
Let's see if this works. He had a fascination for tractors. He had tractors in the front yard and in the back yard, attic, tractor of the month club. Grease everywhere. Carpet. His wife said, "That's it! I'm finished! Either the tractors or me!" He sells everything. He goes to the pub that night. |
| ND |
He goes to the what? |
| VJ |
The pub, the bar. Goes in the bar that night. Opens the door. It's filled with smoke. His mouth drops open. All the smoke goes into his mouth. He goes to the bar. The barman says, "How did you do that?" The guy says, "I'm an ex-tractor fan." |
| ND |
God! |
| VJ |
An extractor what? |
| ND |
Fan. |
| ROLAND |
An ex-tractor fan. |
| BK |
[laughs] |
| ROLAND |
It's a non-sexist joke. I had to redeem myself. |
| ND |
So, the first one I wanna ask is about the concept we're investigating here, which is unlimited free space. The research is aboout space and borderlines. We're asking people whether or not they've had any theoretical, mental or physical experience with unlimited free space. |
|
ROLAND |
About twenty years ago, I was fortunate enough
to be at a talk given by Krishnamurti in Brockwood Park in England. He
said something that was quite remarkable. I was concerned with my space.
As I mentioned earlier, someone had remarked in a dance class that I
should be aware of my space. And he said, "Go to the open field. Not into
the- don't get grounded. Because that holds you back." He said, "Go to a
place that was open, that had no defined borders, that was free."
Listening to him, watching him... It's a lovely summer day. It's a vegetarian college. The kids who go to school there are flower power. Yahuti Menu is teaching violin. It's incredible. The boughs of the plane trees. The grass, sheep and animals. They eat everything that grows there. It's a wonderful place. He's looking into the audience. There are a few tents outside. He's looking at the audience and he says, "Oh, hello. I see a few familiar faces here. "Oh, hello. Hi, Jane." And so on, and so on. And he finishes and says, "What are you doing here?" He's on a chair - on a table. A little bit higher than everybody else. And they're saying, "Oh, I'm here for this." "I'm here for that." And he eventually exploded and he smashed his hand on the desk and he said, "Why are you here?! Year after year - you come back! Have you not learned anything?!" |
| VJ |
[laughs] |
| ROLAND |
Phenomenal. Ain't it? Phenomenal. [laughs] |
| BK |
That's great. Yeah. |
| ROLAND |
That's a good story. Isn't it? |
| BK |
Yeah. |
| ND |
Yeah. It's excellent. |
| ROLAND |
And, I actually watched a moon shot with
an English actor called Peter Bailiss - famous for his Dickens characters.
Listening to Krishnamurti tapes, drinking scotch until we were silly.
I saw him a few years later. He'd recovered. He wasn't drinking scotch
anymore. But, he was still listening to Krishnamurti tapes. [offered a cigarette by ND] I'm fine, thanks. Krishnamurti was discovered by Annie Bassant and a guy called Ledbetter. He was pronounced to be the next world teacher. About twelve or eleven years old. Long hair. Beautiful guy with great big eyes. When he finished his journey teaching around the world - he refused to write, he refused to record, he refused followers. He said, "Be a light unto yourself." And at almost the end of his life - he'd made mistakes: he didn't go to his brother's deathbed. When his brother was dying in hospital, he went on tour to the States. His brother died. It hurt him for the rest of his life that he didn't follow his own light. It's hard to be a teacher. Isn't it? He told Annie Bassant to get away from him. "Leave me! Follow your own light. You don't need to be around me. Go away! It's nothing! You're rubbish!" She discovered him and encouraged him. Amazing. Isn't it? Somebody giving the truth in fact tells those people who think that they've discovered the truth that they haven't discovered it. The truth is the truth. Your discovery remains personal - something you have to define for yourself. It can be found in no one, in no religion, in no book or anything. According to him. He was aware of space beyond belief. His space had no limits. He was totally open and free. A great guiding light. |
| ND |
What you're saying is that you've had a basic theoretical or pedagogic experience with this unlimited free space. Do you think that there've been any periods or moments in your life - I'm speaking in terms of time but, it might also be in physical space - do you think there's a way to describe your own experience with this? Beyond the mental-theoretical exhcange? |
|
ROLAND |
This is 1997. In 1984, I found out that I had
worked illegally in London. I was in the original company of Cats in London,
in the world. The producer, Mackintosh, and the writer, Andrew Lloyd Weber
said, "Oh? Tough! Bye! You worked illegally? Tough!" The department of
immigration put me in jail. Mackintosh and Lloyd-weber said, "Oh, well,
he doesn't work for us anymore." So, that was 1984. 1984! I never would've believed it! Had I even looked back! I mean, what an apocalyptic time for me. And even my entire family. To make a long story short, I ceased to stand up for myself at that point. I became an exponent of the middle way. I'm not denying that I had things to learn. It was a time of discovery. But, after the kharma. "But." Not a proper sentence because no proper sentences exist. Our language is ourself. Who tells us what to do? Nobody tells us to breathe or drink or eat. But otherwise we die. Some people don't eat. Because they have a death wish, something. I don't know. But, after fourteen years, I've started to stand up for myself. And I recently stood at the corner of Broadway and one of those streets that was closed off for the 6183rd performance of Cats. As an original member of the London company - standing, eating my fruit salad, watching Lloyd-Weber, Mackintosh and everybody - and I thought, "How peculiar. How peculiar that it's taken me fourteen years to let go of that space. To get rid of it." I was a Buddhist for that period. It was very helpful. But, I've now got that fighting spirit. You can fight with a sword or you can fight with a pen or you can fight with your religion. But, nothing cuts skin like a sword. And if you're going to deal with realities in your life, then you must grip them with the reality that they present you with. Kapiche? Spirituality does not fight a punch in the face. It's very easy to say, "Hit the other one." Great! But, fourteen years on... My space was invaded. I felt raped. I felt I lost a lot. I keep reading reviews in the paper saying, "Cats was the beginning! They all took off!" And it was my end! My demise! Poor John - who was in the company - John Chester - who was in the original company was fired because he was an alcoholic. He was drunk on stage every night. And he could sing "Memories" by Elaine Page beautifully. He committed suicide later on. Via AIDS. Conveniently. He was straight and had a family. And he killed himself. There was no duty of care to people in those days. Nobody cared. But this was Cats. This was not a piece of dry grass at Wimbledon or something. This was cats, which is now such a megaempire. So, when you look at it, all those people at the beginning were very important. And it was actually a bullshit show. There was no touching. There was no reality. The only reality was individual's lives. And whether they died or didn't was an indictment of the company. Very interesting to be sitting there, watching this all the time. My life. Those fourteen years passing through my eyes at that moment. I've let it go. I'm giving it to you. Its yours. You know? Like the incredible story about a man seeking a tiger. He finds a town in India where there is this tiger. A blue tiger. He wants to go for a walk in this burial ground and the villagers say, "No! It's sacred! You can't go there!" So, he picks up a few stones and he puts them in his pocket and he goes back to his hut. A little boy comes in and he's playing and there are thirteen - i forget the number thirteen or twelve - about twelve - eleven stones! It was eleven. He puts them down. He looks back. There's fifteen. He blinks his eyes. He looks again. There's twenty. Eventually, after weeks and weeks of the stones multiplying and subtracting, he goes mad and he picks them up and throws them out the window. And the little boy comes back and says, "Here's your stones, sir. You threw them out." He goes mad. It takes months. For months and months, he's totally wacko. He takes the stones and he goes to the Taj Mahal. He goes to a priest, a monk, a Sufi, a sadu, a sadu praying with his arm out. As this chap goes up to the sadu - he doesn't know why - he takes the stones and he puts them in the sadu's hand. And the sadu says, "Thank you." That's the end. He takes on his pain and his punishment. Anyway, that's the other story about space. |
| ND |
So, we're the sadu. |
|
ND |
I guess that's the sequel. It's all about tigers, really. I'm a tiger fanatic. I figure if the tiger goes, so do we. I'm grateful for Spielberg and anybody else who explores that whole area. Anybody who's exploring space is right on target. Right there. What do you think about Mars? What do you think about Jacques Cousteau and Mars? Is there a correlation. |
| ND |
Jacques Cousteau, Mars, Krishnamurti, Buddha. There's all some relation where space is concerned. |
| ROLAND |
On a purely geographical basis, a physical basis. Is there an equal and opposite reaction between something and something, uhh... work... Does the journey to mars equivocate to the journey that Jacques Cousteau began? Is Jacques Cousteau the Wright brother of the twenty-first century? |
| VJ |
I had this professor in architecture school once a long time ago. His big interest was to figure out the geographical connections between the birthplace of Christ and the birthplace of Marx and the birthplace of Lenin and different important cities in history. He had all this geometry sorted out, all the special angles and stuff. He almost went mad, too. Through his very particular geometry, he figured out so many connections that he was stunned and couldn't understand how his strange formula applied to all these different incidents. I don't know... |
| ND |
The way that we're doing this project, we're not really concerned with the Wright brothers so much as if you see a movie about flight. Before they talk about the Wright brothers, they'll show a picture of Leonardo's flying machine. Then, after that, some footage of some unknown person, some nameless person jumping off of a cliff. |
| ROLAND |
Right. |
| ND |
We're interested in the nameless people jumping off the cliffs. Not so much the Wright brothers and the Leonardos and the people like that. |
| ROLAND |
Yeah. That's the difference between Donald Trump and you and me. |
| ND |
Right. We're interested in talking to people we encounter. Otherwise, we could go to special famous architects in New York and ask them about space. Or to City Hall. |
| ROLAND |
They never have time anyway because they're too busy doing their own thing. And it's always disappointing. To their detriment. In fact, often the greatest benefit to somebody who's a creator and who's doing well at it is naivete. When naivete is lost, you become an automaton. You're just reproducing what you know. |
| BK |
Yeah. Yeah. |
|
ROLAND |
You're trapped in routine. Of course. Yeah, naivete is so brilliant. The fool. The green man enters! "HAAA!!!! What's this?! My God! He doesn't even know!" Was it George Orwell who wrote Brave New World? |
| ND |
Huxley. |
| ROLAND |
Huxley. I'm sorry, George. He wrote an addendum to it a few years
later. They wanted him to write a new Brave New World and he said, "No, I
can't write a new one. It stands as it was. But, as a preface, I'll say,
when you've done something that you regret, there's no sense in trying to
cleanse it by rolling around in mud." At the time, it solved a lot. I didn't have to go to church. I didn't pray anymore. It was, "Rock on!" You know? |
| VJ |
Like somebody said, "When you stir the shit, it stinks." The same kind of expression. |
| ROLAND |
Exactly. Yeah, exACTLY. |
 |
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Modified May 23, 1997